The Light in Every Thing
Deeper conversation on the mysteries of Christianity with Patrick Kennedy and Jonah Evans, directors of the Seminary of The Christian Community in North America.
In this podcast we engage the great questions of life and do this through a spiritual approach to Christianity made possible through contemplative inquiry and the science of the spirit known as Anthroposophy.
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The Light in Every Thing
“Putting on the New Human” - Episode 44 (Part I) in the series, “Letter to the Ephesians”
In our next episode, we delve deeper into the heart of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 4. Paul calls us “to be renewed in the spirit of [our] minds and to put on the new self” (Eph 4:23-24). Jonah gives us a beautifully simple yet powerful example of how he experiences this renewal of mind—an ever-present possibility that can lead us into Christ’s presence and His peace.
The Light in Every Thing is a podcast of The Seminary of The Christian Community in North America. Learn more about the Seminary and its offerings at our website. This podcast is supported by our growing Patreon community. To learn more, go to www.patreon.com/ccseminary.
Thanks to Elliott Chamberlin who composed our theme music, “Seeking Together,” and the legacy of our original show-notes and patreon producer, Camilla Lake.
Good morning Patrick, Hi Jonah, Second day of 2025. What?
Speaker 3:2025.
Speaker 2:2025.
Speaker 3:Happy New Year I really don't think I ever could imagine I would be living in the time 2025.
Speaker 2:Right it was always like the sci-fi, so futuristic yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah Well, happy New Year. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2:And Happy New Year to all of our listeners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, welcome to the light in everything.
Speaker 2:Where two human hearts deepen, try to deepen the mysteries of Christ through conversation. Deepen, try to deepen the mysteries of Christ through conversation. And we will begin, as we always do, with the Gospel of John in chapter 8. Again, jesus spoke to them, saying I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we do something weird here at the Light and Everything, this podcast that we host here in Toronto at the Seminary of the Christian Community in North America. We ask our sound editors not to take out the pauses Because actually most of what's done now with podcasts, with blogs, things that you find on YouTube and so forth any kind of airtime where there's nothing happening, where there's a quiet, is usually cut and shrunken so that the pace is always at a certain level. And it was interesting because I don't know about you, but one of the things we do on New Year's Eve have done during the COVID times we started it with our girls is watch some fireworks online and you can do that great, you don't have to stay up to midnight because you know it's New Year's in Sydney first and London first, so we watched some of the fireworks and the fireworks display.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you guys watch London, it was bananas. It was bananas. It was also exhausting just visually. It was also exhausting sound-wise because they're pumping in a certain kind of radio sound or music. But when I was a kid I don't know how it was for you, but a firework show had a pulse to it. It would be like you know one, two, three, oh oh you know, and then ba-boom, ba-boom, and then it would do like a big thing.
Speaker 3:You're like wow, and then it would kind of be rest and then it would start another. It would be in these kind of rhythms, right, it would be kind of your rest and then would start another. It would be in these kind of rhythms, right, to give you a breath for the wow and you would wait and then you would see another one and then there'd be a big one. This is like non-stop, constant big ones and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them all at the same time giant, wow, and at a certain point it's just like light, light, light, light. And you go numb and you like it becomes a kind of nothing because it has it's constant. It doesn't breathe and I'm very thankful to our listeners who are patient with us and live into the pauses with us. Sometimes we ask a question, we say a word. Listeners who are patient with us and live into the pauses with us. Sometimes we ask a question, we say a word and we let it sink in there's internal activity before it becomes external speech, sometimes Beautiful.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking about that into the future the mystery of pause and breath.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That feels very important. Yeah, otherwise, it's like light itself seems related to that as well. If it were day all the time, we wouldn't get a feeling for the mystery of the day. The night gifts us with a breath, so we can be in wonder at the dawn and the rising light. So here we are, once again in the dark, about to start a conversation. We don't know where this is going. We take turns. That's our tradition. One person comes in more or less prepared to ask a question of the other, and the other one comes in, usually pretty open to mystery. They'll be like where is this going to go?
Speaker 2:What am I going to be asked?
Speaker 3:So I get to ask the question today. Woo-hoo, and we're in the letter to the Ephesians from St Paul. We've been doing this for some time and we are now in the fourth chapter and the shift we have made is the whole letter kind of culminates. The first part culminates in a prayer in chapter three, the writer Paul writing a prayer that includes a picture, an imagination, of him on his knees, that he actually writes that to them. He could have just said I pray for you.
Speaker 3:I bow my knees before the Father, so he gives them an imagination of him praying for them, which is a priestly activity. I don't think we think of it necessarily that way anymore, because we really believe prayers for all. But I think what we don't realize is that priesthood is for all. But to to pray period is to step into the human activity that is, priestly to be on earth and to lift our thoughts and feelings to the spirit, to seek God and to pray for something, to ask for something. And he asks the spirit being of the universe, the father, to do some things for his beloved community in Ephesus and that they can step in to the fullness of their calling. And then he starts this process in chapter 4 of really focusing on.
Speaker 3:So who are we to be as people called into this reality of the gift of being able to be full of Christ on earth, filled with Christ who is full of God? What does that actually mean? How would that look in our lives? How would we speak and act and walk this calling? So we talked about that a little bit, walking our calling, and last time we got into an aspect of that calling, which is the sacred building project that is headed towards unity, to work and strive towards a kind of, and strive towards a kind of unification of the people in a shared building project, differentiated by our gifts and individual work, within that sacred building which is described as his body. This temple is his body and this temple is a community. So the sacred work of Christ's community, the equipping of the holy ones that's another image of priesthood the consecrated ones, those who've been made holy through Christ to do this work. Yeah, so that's my little review. I don't know, I'm seeing some things come up for you, just reflecting on that, yeah, yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 3:Check in before we.
Speaker 2:I was just struck again by the picture that the gospel, through Paul, is revealing that Christ's body is not yet finished, it's just another. You know the counter distinction of the fact that the risen one on Easter is finished it is finished, he is done, he has risen, yeah and that there's a whole project of a kind of communal body that we are meant to participate in that isn't yet done, that God hasn't done for us but has asked us to co-create. I just find that dynamic tension between those two Fascinating.
Speaker 3:And for me it feels so exciting because somehow the complete gift is ready and it's offered. The fullness of the hope of all reality and future was built. As he said also in John tear this temple down and in three days I will build it up again. And John writes he was referring to his body. And then this next work of the death and resurrection of the community body. How does Easter and all of its power happen within a communal body, and that being the next Christ work?
Speaker 3:after Easter that we get invited into to participate in, and not just wait for Right Equipped to participate in the building.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like it is the walk, it's the journey, it's the work that we're doing. In a way, it is Christianity itself. It's the journey, it's the work that we're doing. In a way, it is Christianity itself. It's the way. It's kind of the description of it, right. Because, before the hierarchies and God did Easter.
Speaker 3:Right, and maybe there were these special separated off servants who could possibly help like a Moses. Right, yeah, of course, and the story of that's amazing too, because it's like everyone's really like hopeless except for Moses. Right, like even Aaron, the priest can't hold it together for a few days before he's off target again.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Everyone, everyone, but they all, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 3:Well, I think this is where it's headed too like what? What is this difference? That's part of what we've been meditating on too like. How is this different than the building work temple building and community building that was happening before christ? And we saw how there are these incredible connections between the Tower of Babel and to the events of Sinai and the forming of the people of Israel, the tabernacle, all of that stuff and the institution of the priesthood and its sacrifices, the high priest, the other priests, the Levites, this group of three tiers that were working in and around the tabernacle, and eventually Solomon's temple, before it all went into ruin Once again until finally, also Jesus' time. Since 70 AD, that priesthood has not been able to live on the earth.
Speaker 3:So nearly 2,000 years an incredible fact kind of spiritual historical fact and the New Testament, I think, would be saying, and the early Christians would be saying, that's because a new priesthood is initiated, there's no need to restore the old order that was instituted. But it doesn't mean priesthood is abolished, but rather something is happening which seems to be making it possible not just for every human in this new community to be a priest, but actually there's only one priest, and it's Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:And therefore he has to live in you If you're to become priestly.
Speaker 3:So this mystery, actually, that the high priest moves into the holy of holies of each person.
Speaker 2:Your body is the temple.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's beautiful so within me the high priest of heaven has taken up abode and I'm seeking to let that permeate my person. Beautiful, yeah, and I think that imagination, though he hasn't what we haven't read that yet, I want to read backwards a little bit, from the beginning of chapter 5, which I think is the end of this contemplation he's doing back to what I want to ask you. Great, I'm excited, but I think it's all within this light of a priesthood and a temple. These are the imaginations I think he's working with, which is a living organism, which is a body, actually, with a tree of life inside it a blood that permeates this body with life and warmth and ego spirit-filled ego
Speaker 3:warmth and ego, spirit filled ego. So his emphasis, of course, and all of this is well, what? How do we okay Great Imaginations? What does that work? Again, Be patient, gentle, bear with one another in love. This is what he says, which we haven't really spoken about yet, which is such a big and powerful piece of this, Eager to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace in verse 3 of chapter 4. But I'll read of this other part right as this building is being built up, chapter 4, verse 15.
Speaker 3:Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him, who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. So this building, it's very interesting, right, it's like this growing building, so it's like an organic, living, growing thing. And right before then he also brings in there. There is a potential for the snake to be at this tree, within this temple garden tree image verse 14 so that we no longer, may no longer, be children. We talked about that too, right. Immaturity and maturity, that's one of his focuses too. Growing up, no longer to be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. So it seems to me there's that snake imagination there.
Speaker 3:The deceiver could come in here and corrupt the work. So this walk, that's his focus. How are we walking? So if we go to chapter 5, verse 1 and 2, I think we can see where he's heading.
Speaker 3:All of this moral work that seems to be the you could say the substance and activity of the builders, of the growers, the gardener, builder, priests. This leads to the highest level of that substance, which is then a priestly picture. Therefore, be imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So he paints this picture of Christ as the priest who we are to be an image of, to imitate. And what is this high priest doing? What is the offering he is bringing, the sacrifice he takes to the altar, his own being for us. And that priestly imagination of the priest brings an offering. Always it used to be some kind of offering bread or fruits of the field or animal sacrifice, the lamb, of course, being a strong imagination, but ox, doves, animal sacrifices around the world, classic priestly image. No, the Christ offering is different. He is simultaneously priest and sacrifice he brings himself.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Yeah, he's the sacrificial lamb and the one imaging God and bringing the offering and bringing the offering. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Beautiful, and that is called love.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, that which is the power he says that's going to build this body is born in, its ultimate image, is imaged to us in Christ giving himself as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So that seems to be this core imagination that that he's headed towards. He's talking about this walk right, so you can see and walk in love. He kind of completes this, I think in this picture that he begins at chapter four therefore, walk in a manner worthy of your calling, and then concludes with this walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Now, a priest, as you know, cannot simply get up in the morning and just begin enter into that work. The priest has to wear special garments. This has always been true throughout all of world history.
Speaker 3:There are things to put on that you inhabit, that brings you into that role, and that's going to be a next thing that Paul is going to address in chapter 4, after he spoke about the building project, and he's going to spend a little time and this is more the uncomfortable territory I'm happy to spend time there, for sure Because he's going to address the immorality that is so prevalent and, okay, accepted behavior within the pagan communities in which the Ephesians live. And this is where I think us moderns also get a little uncomfortable, because he's calling stuff out that we've seen the church do a lot of prudish condemnation that doesn't feel like it's got Christ's power in it, but something else kind of fear of sin rather than love of humans Right well said.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever said it that way for myself fear of sin rather than love of humans.
Speaker 3:I don't think I've ever said it that way for myself Fear of sin rather than love of humans. But I think he's trying to point at also the difference of who we're meant to be trying to characterize the identity. And I want to focus in more on the garments we're supposed to put on, not the garments we're supposed to put off, because he's going to say we need to take certain things off and put certain things on, but if you'd like to spend time there, that's fine, but we shouldn't skip it for fear of reactions or anything like that at all.
Speaker 3:Not at all. We should. We should deal with Paul in his fullness. So maybe you want to read verse 17 through 24.
Speaker 2:Okay, Now this I say and testify in the Lord that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them. Due to their hardness of heart, they have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ, assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him. Heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, so maybe we just track a little bit the incredible pattern he lays down here. The first one is this description of behaviors that are there, this way of being in the peoples around them, the ethnos, the nations other than Israel. That's the old Greek word. Gentiles is how it's translated here, but the word is ethnos the peoples, so it could include anyone. The peoples Do not walk as the peoples do. And then he goes into this incredible diagnosis of what's going on there. Why is this happening? Why is this immorality expressing itself? Something has actually happened to humans, yeah, so he spent some time diagnosing that. The diagnosis here is pretty exciting.
Speaker 3:curious to, of course, to hear how you read that and describe some of the effects of what you see happening, what they're. But it is also saying why what has happened? Inside them that this is happening, and then the process whereby we become other than that. Verse 21, or even 22, put off your old self, it says in the English Standard Version, but we're going to be focusing in on the Greek here, because it really says put off your old anthropos.
Speaker 2:Your old human.
Speaker 3:The whole human being. Put off the old anthropos, old human being which belongs to your former manner of life, yeah, and is corrupt through deceitful desires. So again the snake has gotten into the will. Deceitful desires so again the snake has gotten into the will. There's a deceiving calling us into things that we think are going to lead to this, but actually lead to something else.
Speaker 3:Our will has got some deceit in it and be renewed in the spirit of your minds. And that's so much in here, good Lord. So putting off and an innermost the word for mind here is nous, which can also be translated as your spiritual core, your entity, your very being. Be renewed in the spirit of yourself. That would be probably a closer word to self for me than anthropos. It'd be interesting, right, right. So putting off an old self, renewed in the core. But then you don't, that's not done. You have to 24, put on a new human being, a new anthropos, and that makes much more sense because it's created after the likeness of God, in true righteousness and holiness. So a diagnosis of a sickness that goes into the core. It is actually a corruption that's gone right into the noose, into the mind.
Speaker 2:Anyway, if you want to get wherever you want to go in this for sure. I love this. I love it.
Speaker 3:And then putting that off, taking it off like a garment. Yeah, experiencing a renewal in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Through the spirit, but then dawning a next garment, yeah, which is a whole. This garment is human, it's human and it's created, and it was and it's there was a genesis for it.
Speaker 2:There was a genesis for it. It's, and it's righteous, it's good, and last time I looked, there's only one human that's righteous, totally.
Speaker 3:Exactly, which is what we see later. That's yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. The imitators of yeah, okay, good, so exciting.
Speaker 3:What is it you have really? I don't know another human on earth, and I've investigated some. I can't say I've finished the project of investigating around the earth. No, but I don't know another human on earth who's meditated more devotedly, faithfully and steadily, ever deeper on this question of this human, this new human, and what it means to put him on. Why is it not be renewed in your minds and start behaving differently?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just do it, just do it, just Nike it. You know, just like you've got this, like from yourself, you know I'm thinking of all the self-help work and all the new thought work that permeates our reality, that says, hey, you know, you have the power of God within you. Be renewed in your minds and now be that different thing, be the change you want to see in the world. Just do it from your center out, because you're changed on the inside. You do it. Why put someone else on?
Speaker 2:Such a radical thing.
Speaker 3:Isn't that strange? From who we are so weird? What and how do we do that? What does that mean? All right, right, so, anywhere you'd like to pick up the threads here in this picture of how we enter this priesthood in Christ.
Speaker 2:Wow, beautiful. Well, I mean, what comes up for me really strongly, just as an orientation, is our sacrament of the eye or the sacrament of consultation. The Spanish-speaking world calls it the sacrament of the yo.
Speaker 2:Sacrament del yo, Del yo of the I and I would contend I would. In my experience, it has become very clear for me, over the years of working with it, that it actually has within it these three steps of first recognizing the old human, seeing the old human, that which is we're suffering, that which is we're suffering, having a renewal process in the mind through offering and learning to receive what we also have willed, that we long for as a gift from his being that turns out to be his being from his being.
Speaker 2:that turns out to be his being, and I mean that's a whole.
Speaker 3:I just nutshelled it really, I think yeah, and that's the pattern of becoming Christians forever.
Speaker 2:Forever. It's actually, but it's just a more detailed, and Paul does this. It's a more detailed kind of spiritual psychology, if you will, that reveals this kind of holy pattern of recognizing the prison, the old human, shedding, transforming your mind, turning your mind or another word for that is repentance, metanoia, changing your mind, orientating it to this true new human that is wanting to gift himself as the priest to us, as the priest to us. He, actually, we even say that in our sacrament, our holy communion service. I would contend it would be the climax of the communion service where we say take me as you have given yourself to me, take me as you have given yourself to me. So the will of Christ is really to give his own being to us so that we can be fully new in our humanity.
Speaker 2:I mean, I experienced this just yesterday in myself. I experienced this just yesterday in myself as I become more and more familiar or learn more and more, this divine pattern, this taking off, turning and putting on. Yesterday I found myself, I caught myself and recognized an old human in me, an old pattern. And maybe some people are familiar with this in themselves. But I certainly find it often that I'm living in this picture that if I just can solve all the problems in my life, then I can be good and life is good, and then you can have peace, and then I can have peace. So I just have to figure out all the issues and then put out the fires and then peace can be, then I can have the good life, then I'll be okay, then it'll be, then I can have the good life, then I'll be okay.
Speaker 1:Then it'll be fine.
Speaker 2:A very understandable orientation, yeah, and just let me just figure it out, so that then peace can occur.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank the Lord, I was able to become aware of that old human, that old pattern in me, and through grace and decision, let it go turn. Turn to Christ, who and this is a mystery what do I turn to? Well, I've also somehow become familiar with the fact that through looking at him, he is bearing a lot of problems that aren't yet solved. For example, humanity is not yet where we should be. We haven't yet built a new body, the earth is still full of darkness, human beings are still broken, the temple is not yet built, and yet he's with us, bearing it, working with us, walking with us, suffering it, hoping in it, being faithful in it, loving in it. And he's also deeply at peace. Somehow he says I stand at peace with the world in our sacrament. This peace I give to you also. So the renewal of my mind yesterday and this just happens in a moment is to remember, return, reorientate myself to oh, wait a minute. But Christ's peace doesn't have to do with the dynamic of solving all the problems. And then I get peace.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So let's see if I'm tracking that right, because I think it's so. Tracking that right because I think it's so? Because these are inner, super sensible events happening inside yourself. You don't necessarily see anything on the outside, but your noose, your self, is living in the garments of the way you react to things, of the way you react to things, the way you feel about things, the way you think to approach your life, and it's carrying a picture that true peace and happiness, blessedness are on the other side of the problems which in a certain way is true, like that's why I find myself falling back into that old self, like when I get my checklist done right, there, I, I, there's a certain release right and a certain sense I did and I kind of feel proud of myself in a certain way.
Speaker 2:Completion and peace comes in. And I can kind of like now I can let go, and you know, there's all kinds of experiences of a certain kind of, yes, this approach hasn't come out of nowhere Exactly, but more and more I recognize that self as an old, human, old identity, someone in me that is actually far away from.
Speaker 3:God. Yeah, let's talk about old. I feel like it's real, so the term old is interesting. I feel like it's real, so the term old is interesting. My sense here and I'm interested in how you see this is that it doesn't mean simply previous, like this is what I did before. And what's the new thing? But literally, its life energies have no future. It's dying, amen, okay, like this way of being, a person is aging out, its life forces are dying and there's no real future in it. Is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, old in the sense of decaying and doomed to death.
Speaker 3:No future. This has no Right. This isn't where the growth is.
Speaker 2:And it's also very distinguishable in that, after experiencing multiple times true life in Christ, it's distinguishable because it has no life. It has none of that life in it. It's obsessed with its own accomplishment, pleasure, joy, without sensing being gifted by this greater being. It feels. I feel self-satisfied if I accomplish my checklist.
Speaker 3:That's interesting. So the part where you see the old in it if I'm catching that rightly or that has no future in it, is the part that lives in it or is attached to and seeking a peace that comes about through you doing, solving problems and completing tasks, and you notice the difference between the kind of experience of blessing, the kind of peace and satisfaction that comes from just being in him, even when you're in the unresolved Exactly and even when things are being resolved.
Speaker 3:I'm experiencing, I'm in the realm of gratitude, not self-satisfaction. Not self-satisfaction. Didn't I do an awesome job?
Speaker 2:Right. I feel like there's a lemnis gate or a circulation of life between me and him as opposed to just me as opposed to just me.
Speaker 3:So the joy of seeing that there are forces of grace and blessing that have brought this completion, about that kind of satisfaction compared to the satisfaction of I did that and completed that, that's right.
Speaker 2:But then there's this problem of you still have these burdens, yeah, and how is that peaceful?
Speaker 2:How do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and that's where I get tripped up, mostly because I'm so kind of, mostly because I'm so kind of, there's an older human in me, or a human that is habituated to solving things on its own, that only finds peace when those things are solved.
Speaker 2:And yet there's a different kind of peace that Christ is offering, that can stand at peace even while bearing what can feel like unsolvable burdens, the uncomfortableness of having to not know how to do something, or the pain even of a problem that is very painful. That there, that there is a kind of peace that he's bearing because he's doing that, that can, that can comfort surround carry, that can comfort surround carry the challenges and burdens and pains, rightful pains, of our destiny. That is available. And the interesting thing about that piece and that kind of relationship to burden is that it's also life-giving, whereas the other kind of problems that are just waiting to be solved by me life only comes, or the kind of enjoyment only comes, after they're solved have you ever done any programming like computer, like not designer one iota of programming I did it a little bit.
Speaker 3:I took a course on it in college. Wow, I thought you know I should get to know this a little bit very, very simple just like introductory.
Speaker 3:I forget what the language was. It was like super simple and we had to design a couple of things where you're, you're, you're sending these, um, the computer process in a kind of in a path that goes through logical processes like, if this, then that, if, if it's this, then go this way, if it's that, go this way, and it like, oh, it's so, it's like it. It's like a little flow that hits gates and, depending if the gates are closed or open, it should go this way or that way it gets these signals and that's how it's making the decisions to go left or right or this way or that way and make it's not choose your own adventure.
Speaker 3:it's getting information which is telling it to go this way or that. That's basically how all of our computers are working. If the user does that, go that way, if the user right, it's like if, then if, then if. And you run into when you get into that, you run into challenges, like it's not working, you're like it's going there and then it's going right. Why is it? And you become obsessed. It's this weird thing.
Speaker 3:And programmers write about this all the time Like you don't, like you've sleep, you don't care anymore, like you just want to get to the feeling of solving this problem and the satisfaction of watching this thing do what you intended it to do and the experience of kind of not only solving a problem but also having created something. And now look, it's doing it, it's running at these patterns and this kind of um source of satisfaction from outcome. That was one of the most intense places I experienced it and I think it really lives strongly there. And I hear you describing a different thing, which is you would certainly you'd love a certain outcome for the person, for the community that you're caring for, for your family, for your child, whatever it is, but you may not be able to program it into that outcome.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 3:In fact, you might not even know what the best outcome is, and you're talking about shifting into what I hear you describe as an activity of being present in the challenge in a Christed way. That is its own satisfaction. Right, I'm trying to find it Exactly.
Speaker 2:That is its own, but it turns out. So when I turn my mind to that because I see Christ doing that, I'm turning because I find what he's doing, that so beautiful ©.
Speaker 1:B Emily Beynon.