The Light in Every Thing
Deeper conversation on the mysteries of Christianity with Patrick Kennedy and Jonah Evans, directors of the Seminary of The Christian Community in North America.
In this podcast we engage the great questions of life and do this through a spiritual approach to Christianity made possible through contemplative inquiry and the science of the spirit known as Anthroposophy.
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The Light in Every Thing
“And the Two Become One Flesh” — episode 51 in the series on the Letter to the Ephesians
We venture into the profound depths of marriage as a cosmic mystery, exploring the universal archetypes that underpin Paul's guidance in Ephesians 5. Far beyond simple gender roles or power dynamics, these ancient patterns reveal something extraordinary about our spiritual journey.
The conversation begins with a crucial insight: before any discussion of husbands and wives, we must recognize that all humans are first called to be "wives" in relation to Christ—following, receiving, being transformed. This universal spiritual positioning fundamentally reshapes how we understand Paul's marriage imagery.
Diving into Genesis, we uncover the stunning revelation of God's two-fold nature—expressing both masculine and feminine principles from the very first verses. "Male and female created them" isn't just about human biology, but about the divine polarities present within the Godhead itself. This transforms our understanding of the "profound mystery" Paul references when discussing marriage.
The mystery deepens as we explore humanity's original wholeness, subsequent separation, and yearning for reunion. Marriage emerges not as a power structure but as sacred medicine—healing the fundamental split in our nature. This explains why Jesus taught that in the resurrection, we'll no longer marry—the healing work will be complete, the wholeness restored.
These archetypes offer a healing perspective for our modern struggles with relationship dynamics. Rather than fixating on who leads and who follows based on gender, we're invited to see intimate partnerships as participation in the cosmic wedding that heals our brokenness and points toward our ultimate reunion with the divine.
Join us as we unpack what Paul meant when he called this mystery "mega"—an insight that transforms not just marriage, but our understanding of the entire spiritual journey.
The Light in Every Thing is a podcast of The Seminary of The Christian Community in North America. Learn more about the Seminary and its offerings at our website. This podcast is supported by our growing Patreon community. To learn more, go to www.patreon.com/ccseminary.
Thanks to Elliott Chamberlin who composed our theme music, “Seeking Together,” and the legacy of our original show-notes and patreon producer, Camilla Lake.
Hi Jonah.
Speaker 3:Good morning Patrick. What time is it over with you Nine?
Speaker 2:Oh, after nine in the morning, yep.
Speaker 3:Two hours difference. Denver is 7 am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are you doing in Denver there, jonah?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, we have this annual delegates conference for the North American region and the Lanker is meant to be there, and that's what I'm doing, also meeting with our dear colleagues rafal and sanford, and I had a profound meeting with a evangelical pastor oh nice wow one of glenn williamson's friends and he won. Yeah, it was really interesting. I'll have to tell you about it sometime. Wow, one of Glenn Williamson's friends and he was really interesting. I'll have to tell you about it sometime.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, oh, I'd really like to. I'm sure it'd be interesting. Maybe he makes it to the podcast sometime. You never know. Yeah. So here we are. We're normally able to hide in our sweats behind the camera, people don't have to see us. And our sweats behind the camera, people don't have to see us. But since we have the distances, this podcast will be also visual, for our patrons, at least.
Speaker 3:So a big hello and warm greetings to all of you and welcome to the Light in Everything where two humans speak about Christ as best they can.
Speaker 2:Amen. We begin with a reading from the Gospel of John in the eighth chapter, as a kind of bell to ring and set the tone for our alignment in our conversation. Again, jesus spoke to them saying I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I'm struck again by our reading this morning, this bell, this call to follow Christ. If we remember back to our last episode, paul reinterprets this as be imitators of Christ, not just follow a light, but allow that light to enter you and start to shine out from you as well. I think that's such an important thing to remember. And what, patrick? I just want to kind of bridge today and then introduce something and ask you a question. I just want to kind of bridge today and then introduce something and ask you a question as we come to a real close. I mean, we're getting close to the end of our study of Ephesians, which is amazing and exciting also about what we're going to do next, but we'll see. So we're in chapter five of Ephesians and related to this kind of following the light, but also becoming the light, the imitators of Christ, that we hear in the beginning of chapter five.
Speaker 3:I think what really stuck with me from last conversation was this picture that not only are we all, men and women, called to look into the mysteries of how Paul describes the relationship of husband and wife and he starts to say husbands be like Christ, wives be like the church, the ecclesia. It struck me very profoundly that actually, first and foremost, we're all meant to be wives. I think I want to just ring that bell one more time before we because sometimes I mean, as you know, patrick, we can get too caught up into these kind of power roles who's better, who's following, who's servant is trying to lead us into in terms of making everything in our lives like Christ's relationship with humanity, making everything in our lives like a holy matrimony. The first thing we've got to remember is because we're all trying to follow and imitate Christ, we're all in that kind of wife mode, at least as Paul describes it wives treat your husband like Christ. So that's the first thing I want to remember.
Speaker 3:And yet we're all also meant to be like Christ. It's not as if women are excluded from that, if you follow the whole thing, because we're all to be imitators of Christ. So, first and foremost this is kind of a universal be like the church, follow the Christ, receive the Christ, every human, and also try to shine like the Christ. Be imitators of Christ, all people he doesn't just say men be imitators of Christ, right? No, no, I just kind of wanted to make it universal, or at least remind us that this is a universal first before, before we go any any further. I don't know. Yeah, I don't want to add.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I don't think we'll, yeah, I think it's gonna take time to move towards those universals and we need, we're in desperate need of them, and even what we mean by that. What do we mean by universals and how does that embody itself in each human being individually? How does that embody itself in community and as we see then in the book of revelation, where the whole earth becomes a bride. So this cosmic wedding imagery and we're talking about this it's just you can't just you just history has taken some turns now where we can't assume there is a warm, fuzzy feeling around imageries of wedding or that we have any idea of what marriage means anymore.
Speaker 2:It's like this incredible thing Christian priests, you know the assumptions about what we think. All this stuff is in our political approach to the question or our pastoral, all the different feelings that might be rising up because of pain. Because of pain there's so much, there's so many wounds and woundings out there, connected to these themes. There's a kind of wrath, a kind of reactive vengeance coming upon, the violence of the imposed understanding of this meaning, the literal understanding of this meaning of these pictures, and then the very lived dangers.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah of the power imbalances within relationships that I want to get into too. I feel like we have to get into that in order to break through to the healing forces available in these universal pictures.
Speaker 3:Yeah, amen. Well, that's exactly where I wanted to go. It's like, okay, let's lay down the archetypes first and make sure we're not getting losing sight of the universal archetypes, but then let's get into the details, like, what does this actually mean in in life? So maybe I'll just I had in mind to just read one more time this, this section from verse 22 to through verse 33, just to kind of reorientate us with also just remembering I think we mentioned that last time that the, the guidance and instruction and direction for how to be a husband, is much longer. Yeah, and that's also just interesting in this description.
Speaker 2:Well, also, I feel like also also listening, like how he's using, he, he so quickly is using the, the words of wife and husband and and how we normally think of it. He's going you're going to see, wait, how does he mean it? By the end, you're like how does he mean it? How?
Speaker 3:does, do I actually understand how?
Speaker 2:I'm yeah so right.
Speaker 3:So it's like we can assume that, okay, the massive shadow of this is the husband is the boss and the wife is the servant. That's the massive issue. Yeah, and it's understandable why that could be interpreted in that way, but it's totally not it Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally not it. Well, yeah, and then he's going to reference Genesis 2 in this chapter and be reading things in that framework and there's some deep, deep readings of the mystery of human evolution and the sickness of sin and the story of how that plays out in our separated sex-gendered experience beautiful, let's get into it.
Speaker 3:so I'll read it and then and then what I want to do, just so you know, is I want to ask you okay now, now that we have a little bit of the structure, how do we start to enter Patrick into the details, meaning how do we start to enter into the actual practice of this as wives and husbands? But let's see, we may need some more kind of biblical archetypes before we do that. But let's see, we may need some more kind of biblical um archetypes before we do that. But let's see. So, verse 22, wives. Well, you know what I'm going to start with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the last sentence yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's so important, right, yeah, yeah. So where does it start here? Verse 18, I guess it does. It's a long sentence. Well, I'll just start here with verse 20.
Speaker 3:Giving thanks always for everything to God, the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ, everyone submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now, as this church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Speaker 3:Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no one ever aided his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church because we are members of his body. Christ does the church because we are members of his body. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound and I am saying it, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself and let the wife see that she respects. Yeah, so maybe, since you mentioned it, maybe the first thing is just is there anything in there that needs further penetration?
Speaker 2:Patrick, you mentioned the Old Testament there really is so much here, and and I I guess I guess I'm gonna just say with the dear beloved friends in my life who and colleagues and spirit friends whose life partners are the same sex as themselves or whose desire is for that how, outside these pictures, they may feel as we speak about them, yeah, how this may feel this has nothing to do with them, or does it, and does it? It's like roles that someone is playing and I I'm just feeling, um, I'm feeling like this bad. The back end of these, this text, the latter part of it that speaks about the mystery of the church and christ, the secret of the two shall become one flesh. I think is so important, then, to put weight over there at that end and look at the secret of our humanity and then come back to the specific relationship of a man and a woman in a marriage relationship as an expression of these things that have to do with everyone and has to do with everyone in the church. I think so. That's why, for me, it's like that we need to put the weight over there in order to understand how everyone is included in these pictures actually, and then we can get into the specific, like as he does there, at the end there's 32, this mystery, this mystery on. So he's talking about us, the highest level of the sacred rites, a sacramental mystery.
Speaker 2:This is profoundly deep. That word profound interests me also. It is megas. It is huge, it's's enormous. This mystery is enormous. That's what he's saying. You know, profound is a good word. They're like, they're, they felt like. Well, we can't translate. This mystery is mega this is an enormous mystery, it's mega.
Speaker 2:And then he says I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Ecclesia. Yeah, so the anointed one and the Ecclesia, so that's like his anointing. And then he says, verse 33, however, let each one of you love. Then he goes back from there. You, in those relationships, you are imaging the mystery. You are not the point you're just a place where this mystery comes to expression I think that's so important.
Speaker 3:It it's like what that we, what we started with, and last time we were just talking about the universal archetypes. First, right, yeah, it's the mystery for all. It's not exclusive. No, we're all a part of the church. We're all seeking union in a marriage, no matter who you are in the face of the earth yes, matter what who you are on the face of the earth, yes. And then he takes that archetype and tries to place it and find it in the specific instance of heterosexual marriage yep, as as an expression of the mystery, it is mega.
Speaker 3:It's mega and I think we named this last time as a grasping at it as a concept, which is, we could call it, sacramentalism, trying to bring the universal sacrament into every aspect of life, which Paul is doing here clearly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is so exciting. Maybe what's interesting to me also to think about is I think Paul knows his audience really, really well and he's very familiar with the mysteries around Artemis. So the great temple that is in Ephesus is this temple to the goddess Artemis, and she is mainly a goddess of childbirth. She is someone assisting in the birthing mysteries. She's also a big festival happening in the city is connected to her, around a dancing festival, a beauty festival where you find each other for possible marriage. So she's also connected with the marriage, marriage and childbirth mysteries. She was known in certain stories and imagery as also a goddess of the hunt. She's a warrior, but she herself never marries and never has children, but assists in these things, is a kind of a tender in these things. And the other really important picture I think that's connected to all of this is she is a twin. So she has someone who was born at the same time, who is her counterpart, and it's Apollo, the god of the sun. That's her twin.
Speaker 2:You see how these secrets are actually strongly present. There is a female and male expression of something. Sometimes Artemis is understood to have a relationship with the moon. Those are a little bit less attested, particularly in Ephesus. It wasn't an emphasis, it seems, in Ephesus, but this moment, for example, when in Genesis 1, if we were to go to Genesis 1, the whole way Genesis 1 builds up the twofold nature of God is very subtle, but also, once you start to see it, pretty clear. And we know we get to the making of the human being in Genesis 1, I think verse 25. We'll just go there, take our time.
Speaker 2:25 is then the making of the animals on day six, and then 26, and then God said let us make the human in our image and after our likeness. There's so much in that, of course, as we know, in those few words, but it's at least a community of gods. Let us make the human being in our image. So the human being in our image, so the human being, according to genesis, is going to be an image of more than one. It's going to be a one that is a community, both, and it is the one god, because we'll hear that later as the human being is made. It's very clear. It's also a single, it's a single thing. So verse 27,. So God created the human being in his own image. So there the pronoun is singular God's own image, single image the human being in his own image. In the image of god, he created him and then, male and female, he created them.
Speaker 2:So it ends on a plural for the human. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, this is classic, because it then shows us why Christ Jesus is such an archetype for us, because this is also the being that is a one and a community.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:At the same time.
Speaker 2:And I think, the Christology that we are, we're gifted through the renewal of the spirit sciences, and Rudolf Steiner is the only one that can start to break through to that mystery. How, what is that?
Speaker 3:But Paul is doing it here too. He's doing it here in the beginning of Ephesians too, like we were in him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's just, let's just go slow back and forth, if you don't mind. I just feel like I don't want to. I feel like it's worth the time If we go back to Ephesians 5, 32, referring to Christ in the church, if we go back and just see, actually a little bit further back to the beginning, verse 23, christ is the head of the church, his body. There's no separation between head and body, it's one being. Hmm, there's no separation between head and body. Hmm, it's one being. Hmm.
Speaker 2:There is no, there is no floating head and some kind of body over there. Right.
Speaker 2:And so, when he comes back and says about this mega mystery, he's quoting Genesis two, which will come soon. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife. I believe that the context is saying, he's describing the incarnation Christ leaves the realm of the father-mother Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Beautiful. Christ leaves the realm of the father mother, beautiful and actually unites. And it says and hold fast to his wife, this clinging picture, which is very important image, and the two shall become one flesh. Right, so he's made a new body and a human being being. Uh, your, your, your innermost and your outermost. Then you have a whole human being, right, he leaves the cosmic body, leaves the household of the god of god and comes in and joins himself as bridegroom to his bride, becoming one flesh which is. He's therefore indistinguishable from the bride.
Speaker 3:Right, it's it, they are, they are united they're totally united and that's reflected in how he talks. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies as their own body he who loves his wife loves himself and yes, no one.
Speaker 2:They're one, so they're two yeah, yeah, that's really important.
Speaker 2:Right, it's so essential. And that's again picking up a mystery, I think, from just the reality that the sages of Genesis are trying to point to God is one and God is multiple. How many you write, you can wonder like who all was talking to each other. Well, by the time we get to verse 27 in chapter 1, it says God created the human being in his own image, the image of God, in the image of God. He created him Male, female, he created them. So God is at least two in nature, at least.
Speaker 2:At least and in some kind of core way. God is two. So this is verse 27 of chapter one. This is the first time the words male and female have come up and if you're a reader you're like wait, when did God show God's self to be male and female in this, in the read, in the verse after verse of god's creating that we've just read, where was the male and the female that's being referenced here?
Speaker 2:all right good this is why it's meditative literature. Right, it's like you got to read it. You get to this point. You're like what they're too like, where was that before? And then you go back and looking for the spiritual archetypes at work in creation that are being expressed. And I believe there's a rhythm here to be discovered.
Speaker 2:That's really helpful when you find it. You're okay to bear with me a little longer on this one. I think it's exciting, absolutely all right, nice. So so if we go to verse two of genesis one, if you happen to be following along at home, page one of the whole bible, verse one kind of, gives this kind of prologue this is the beginning, the creation of and it's right from the beginning heaven and earth. So already we're actually getting a two-ness. The sky realms and the earth realms come from one being. This two-ness comes from one being. So it's already like the bell has been rung right, that things god one creates, heaven and earth, both have come from god.
Speaker 2:And then we get it in another way. The first element that's there in verse two is this formless darkness void. I should say the formless void is called earth. A darkness was over the face of the deep. The deep is connected to the deep waters. So there's this watery and earth, chaotic, deep, dark abyss. It's the first element, but over it it something is quote unquote hovering, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. So the first element of God that we're introduced to is the spirit of God and the spirit of God is described as it's the Ruach, elohim, and it is hovering.
Speaker 2:Now this word hovering in Hebrew Rahab, comes only two times in the entire Bible, like really twice, like never, ever, except the two places. The only other place then that it comes is in Deuteronomy. So we've got it for at the beginning of the Torah, in Genesis. It comes at the end, end of the Torah. It comes at the end describing how God came over his people in protection and rescue through the story of the Exodus. So it's Deuteronomy 32. And here comes the picture Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, that flutters over its young, spreading out its wings, hatching them, bearing them on its pinions. It's a beautiful image of this eagle mother who is hovering over, and that's the word is flutters. Who is hovering over, and that's the word is flutters. It's the exact same Hebrew word as translated as hover before they don't, but they don't have the courage to say flutters.
Speaker 2:It's like a, it's like a mother bird, warming, brooding Sometimes that was translated that way brooding over the waters. And ruach is a feminine word in the, in the way in which these um, these nouns are assigned genders and language in the in the hebrew. So you have this ruach elohim fluttering over the darkness. That's the first picture. It's a feminine picture and if you'd hear Hebrew, you would hear this feminine picture. And then God speaks a word and it was light and we get this word coming from the mouth into the darkness, illuminating it, the logos element, the word element. So these are two very different acts of the Godhead that have two very different gestures, that have two very different gestures. And when Jesus speaks about these things, then, to his disciples.
Speaker 2:He will call the word a seed, the word, the seed is the word of God. So this seed is then planted into this chaos, darkness, watery earth and evolution can start to unfold. That's like chapter one, I think, of these two-nesses. Right, you get the very heaven and earth two-ness and then you get this hovering, fluttering spirit and the spoken word that is light. And then oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to emphasize. So you're trying to really pinpoint kind of archetypal masculine, feminine qualities that are revealed in the first revelations of God in the Bible.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that we can get closer to the depth and profound mystery of these two in relationship. Yeah, these two are God. Yeah, who is this? Also? Third, who holds them too?
Speaker 3:Right. So it's a radical thing you're saying. You're saying God is both man and woman, masculine and feminine. Yeah, otherwise how could we be in the image and likeness?
Speaker 2:And not a man-woman, right or not, a woman-man and not a man woman, right or not a woman, man or not, some kind of physical object that has both sexual organs on it.
Speaker 4:That's not right. You see how it gets so physicality, right, but rather there are.
Speaker 2:That which leads to these polarities in the physical world are both streaming from the same creative source, yeah, and that that we need those kinds of thoughts. We need to know that there is a primal creative energy in which the polarities exist in wholeness, get expressed in physical reality, separated in polarity, so that they can come together and a new wholeness can come about. It's like it's a secret of evolution, beautiful. The divinity has to express these things out into a separate state for a new whole state to even come about. And that is repeated then when, on day three, so God creates these regions of the of the world through these forces and powers within it, and then, on day three, starts to populate these regions. And again and again, you start to see these mysteries of the feminine, masculine come to expression.
Speaker 2:So if we go to chapter three in Genesis I'm sorry, day three in Genesis is chapter one, day three, and that is verse 14. Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. It also is another. All these dualities are coming into being, day and night, for example, as well. So the lights are. He's going to permeate the sky world with lights.
Speaker 2:And then in verse 16, and God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night and the stars. So you have these royal ruling lights that are not called by their usual names in the Hebrew Bible, sun and moon, but characterized as ruling light givers, and they have a shared holding of the sky realm. And then we get to the creation of the human being male, female. He created them and then he says to them they are to rule. So God is shown as this ruling double power in shaping reality, slaces rulers in the sky realm in a double reality and then creates on the earth also a being that is in a double reality. Who's called to rule. So that seems to me to be the triple step. Does that make sense? Is that followable?
Speaker 3:I definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:I would, I would love to at some point integrate those archetypes into actual experiential marriage yes, yes, yes, like that's why I guess, that's why I kept saying like going slow, because, like in a certain way take a hold of these things slowly so we can get to the details of life and start to see see how they work.
Speaker 2:All of this takes a dramatic turn in chapter two. You know you, you move into the next generation. As it says at the beginning of the chapter, this is the, these are the generations, the next generations of the heaven and the earth, and it's like this new creation moment and suddenly there are issues yeah, yeah, human is made yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:There's no adversary, there's no tempter right and jesus, one is like it's all good and it's very good and everything is harmony, all the polarities are ruling in their rightful spots and there's an incredible balance and harmony to the whole thing and it ends in shalom, in peace and rest, and you're just like good, we can just go, you know I'll just stay here.
Speaker 2:Character two it's like oh, now we, now we have an element of dust enter the story and the human is made and God looks at the human. It doesn't go, it's good, oh, it's not good that the human is alone. So this oneness is a problem actually in chapter two. This is a problem actually in chapter two.
Speaker 2:And so he has to reach in and generate a separation, pulling Eve out of the side, pulling or I should say, not Eve, yet the woman, it says, out of the side. And then that's where this quote then comes after he brings god, god brings woman to now man, now that the polarity is is an expressed physical polarity, a separation to a degree, not physical, physical, but some kind of separation. And and there is this hymn that comes from the human being, at last, this is the one taken from me and therefore belongs to me, and I just want to take a moment and think about the twin idea In the Egyptian mysteries that were also very practiced and popular, for example, in the Isis mysteries in Ephesus, you also had this longstanding tradition of sister bride, sister bride, sister bride. Like there is, there is a way in which the polarity is created, but it's different than regular marriage because you actually have the same parents and you're actually of the same womb.
Speaker 2:Your father and mother are the same. This is where, in physical reality, is not a good idea. You don't want to follow this one, but I think it's all pictured also in the Gospel of John, which we don't probably have time to get into today. But if you look into its story, with these mysteries, he also shows this secret. There's this secret that seems to be. They are equal, equally born of equal parentage, but they're brought together and there's a bridal and bridegroom moment here. They're united and that's what then is confirmed in verse 24. It's like suddenly there's some commentary that comes in Therefore, a human being or a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh. That's where it comes. It's in this separation story, but this future tense. These two will come together and become one body, one flesh. They will be utterly united.
Speaker 3:And that's what Paul quotes here in Ephesians 31, verse 31.
Speaker 2:So he's trying to say listen, what I'm talking to you about has to do with the depths of our origin story, when we had a problem in creation of aloneness, god separating us into two-ness, then being joined in joy and becoming united in a new way. She was hidden in his side and he was alone. She's taken out of him, brought to him in conscious, oh you, and this, this beautiful hymn comes out of him and then they are joined together and become one I think that's really worth just emphasizing.
Speaker 3:As another depth, let's call it a depth archetype, as another depth, let's call it a depth archetype of the marriage which is. This picture, this profound mystery of the two becoming one is also, in a way, a return or a recreation of the original human that was one so we didn't say new creation like it's like a new kind of that's what I just said.
Speaker 3:right, a recreate, a re and renew creation. It's not just a definitely not just a return, but, uh, the, the picture that the human being was the originally one being, as God is one being, with two dynamic archetypes working together. Yes, this picture, this is a radical picture that you're, you're, you're laying down for us that marriage is actually a medicine that creates, not only heals, makes whole, but creates something new.
Speaker 2:The human being is meant to be not split, ie as so beautifully said, marriage is a medicine to heal the split, the tear in our humanness right we have been broken apart, I think everyone.
Speaker 2:I think I think this thought is one of the most medicinal thoughts because it names a core, just existential experience of being embodied. Something's wrong, right, whatever you're experiencing in your body. All kinds People are having all kinds of experiences, but this kind of fundamental experience, something is like fundamentally off and I need to seek something outside me that is going to heal and make whole what feels broken Right.
Speaker 3:So the biggest mystery of that is, of course, the Christian, the full mystery which is the mega mystery, the mega mystery which is a mega mystery, the mega mystery which is like I'm not whole and when I commune with christ, I, I, I become whole, that that's the universal for every human on earth. This is it, and then there's also kind of a reflection of that in this marriage. One flesh mystery which you've in detail from Janet, showed us that that's then a kind of also happening with the man-woman. We're meant to not be split, we're meant to be medicinally recreated, recreated into a oneness, and the marriage, somehow, is helping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this word was understood by the early church and I think by us, as the prophecy, the prophecy actually of the resurrection, and I say all of the future tense. A man will leave father and mother, so you're going to leave the Godhead and then be united with your bride, in this case, and they will be one flesh. No, no, hebrews thought you were like literally sewn together in their flesh. Right, they didn't. Nobody thought that. But that's, I think, revealed in jesus's teachings, then in the gospels, where he says to the set to the sadducees who don't believe in the resurrection, when they ask like so who's going to be my?
Speaker 2:you know if I've had multiple wives for various reasons, or multiple husbands. If a woman has had multiple husbands, who will be her husband at the resurrection, it is. You do not understand scripture or god, because at the resurrection you will no longer be given in marriage. Oh so, the marriage work will be done at the resurrection. Marriaging, marrying will be done.
Speaker 3:Right, it will be like the angels in heaven so that's really important because that can be interpreted in various ways. But what you're saying is this reuniting, recreating the oneness that was split in humanity at the fall in genesis 2 is being reworked together spiritually so that at the resurrection, at the end of earth evolution, the human being is whole again and doesn't need the marriage medicine. It's fulfilled. Yeah, and marriage medicine in the sense of every's fulfilled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and marriage. Medicine, in the sense of every sacrament, is marriage.
Speaker 3:First and foremost.
Speaker 2:Right. First and foremost, as you said, when I commune with Christ, I am, and if I go to the depths of clinging to him and ingesting his word like a seed, then what is gestating in me is a new and whole human being that no longer has the brokenness, so that when this world falls away, I will rise as a complete human. That's a marriage, as is to a man and a woman, is a marriage as is baptism, is a marriage as is actually. All seven sacraments have this marriage mystery, certainly ordination, you could go through them in that beautiful way. So I think this secret of what we've looked at is this is the archetype of the entirety of earth evolution, wholeness that had the polarities hidden in them Separation for the sake of becoming Marriage, but split, split being the pain of that becoming marriage as the activity whereby the reconciliation, healing and coming back together can take place, the oneness, a new oneness, a new kind of creation can come into being yeah wholeness separation, wedding, marriage as healing.
Speaker 3:It's a new creation beautiful well, I feel like I mean, I feel like that's, you know, probably some of our listeners, many of our listeners, will need to to listen to this a few times, because there's such rich archetypes there, and I'm actually really glad we went back and set us back into Genesis to just fill out. I mean, we laid some down, but this is such a rich universal patterning that it's worthwhile really taking our time. As you said, Totally.
Speaker 2:But it's going to go on steroids once we go into chapter three of Genesis. Okay, because now the snake's going to get involved. Now there's like and this woman is going to do her own actions. The man's not even doing any actions and the differentiation of what comes of. Suddenly they're not equal anymore. By the end of this chapter. They get different things they have to work with and there begins to be a, a, a, dis, um. They're not complementing, but actually as a result of this process that the feminine part goes into it, for its healing it needs to do submission work. This is where it gets really. In other words, what is said is very painful for us, I think in our time, which is she is told that you're. This is verse 16. Your desire shall be for your husband or in opposition to your husband. There's going to be a desire issue related to the husband.
Speaker 3:It's hard to translate for them, but what's very clear is and he shall rule over you, and this is this is where we're back in the problems again. Well, listen, I get it's become very clear for our next episode. We're gonna have to go into more of the archetypal foundations, I think, before we can get to. Well, how do these archetypes actually work into our own lives, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, because why would that happen? Why would that be the same center? He will rule over you, rather than this. Equal ruling pictures in genesis one right, one ruling here, the other ruling there, both called to rule. All of a sudden something happens. The next kind of drama happens. I think it's hard to understand. I think we need time.
Speaker 3:Well, that's great. That's also a cliffhanger for the next episode. I can't wait.
Speaker 2:We didn't wrap it all up in a bow. Sadly this time, well, thank you so much. Sadly this time, yeah, well, thank you so much, Jonah. No-transcript.